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Eva Lovisa on Airstream Living

May 26, 2021
 

Season 2, Episode 21

Summary:

Ever wonder what it’s really like to live in a tiny house or be a nomad by choice? There is something romantic and freeing about the idea of hitting the road, exploring new places and living minimally. Many think about it, few do it.  Eva Lovisa and her husband, Nick, are in the camp of living life in an Airstream. Former condo owners and current web and design professionals, they decided to sell everything, buy an Airstream, and set out to find where in the country they might want to live permanently. Learn the unimagined benefits, the realities of truly living and working remotely, and how a spark of an idea can create an even more abundant life. For Eva, that applies to both her Airstream living and the new business she created, Lucky Yarrow. 

 

Links:

Eva Lovisa

Lucky Yarrow

Instagram : evalovisa3

 

Transcript:

Michael Kithcart: 

Hello, I'm Michael Kithcart. I'm a high performance coach and entrepreneur who helps Ward out achievers move from exhausted to unstoppable by winning their way. Welcome to the Champions of RISK podcast where we examine the many aspects of risk, so we can all face uncertainty with more strength, courage, and some humor together. My guest today has taken remote working on an adventure. Most of us have been working remotely from our homes. Some of you spent the winter or maybe a month working from a different destination. But Eva Lovisa and her husband Nick took it one step further by creating a new home and mobile office in an Airstream travel trailer and they hit the road. For anyone who has watched a tiny house episode and wondered what's it like to live in a small space that's portable, you are about to get your wanderlust questions answered. So full disclosure, Eva and I met a couple of years ago. She's a web and graphic designer who created my website, and she has just this fantastic spirit. I reached out to her probably earlier in the year here. And then I found out that she had moved and she was living in an Airstream. I had to find out more. So Eva, welcome to the podcast.

Eva Lovisa: 

Oh, thank you so much for having me. This is so fun.

Michael Kithcart: 

It is I just I have to ask where in the world are you today?

Eva Lovisa: 

Well, I'm calling in from Tucson, Arizona. It is warm and really windy today. But beautiful. There's cactus everywhere is very different. I'm from Minnesota originally. So this is this is just, it does feel like an adventure, a whole nother world.

Michael Kithcart: 

I bet. So give us some context. What was your life like a year or so ago? Like? Where were you? What was your living situation what we do in day to day?

Eva Lovisa: 

Calling in from Tucson, Arizona.

Michael Kithcart: 

Love it. And what's the temperature today?

Eva Lovisa: 

Oh, gosh, it's almost 90. Yeah, it's warm. It feels like summer here. To me from like, the experience in Minnesota that I had. But it's it's spring here. But 90? Yeah.

Michael Kithcart: 

Okay. Let's go back in time a little bit. And what was your life like? A year ago? Like, where were you? What was your living situation? What were you doing day to day?

Eva Lovisa: 

Yeah. So a year ago, my husband and I were living in a small condo in Minneapolis, Minnesota was about 624 square feet. So small place. We don't have any kids. It's just us and our cat. And we were both self employed. We both work remotely online. My husband is a web developer. And and as as, as you mentioned earlier, I do web and graphic design. So we were already used to working from our living rooms.

Michael Kithcart: 

Okay, and what was it that made you start thinking that maybe you want to get out of town you want to not live in the condo anymore? Like when did you actually start thinking about the airstream life?

Eva Lovisa: 

Oh gosh, well, my husband and I have always felt like we were both born and raised in Minnesota but never has felt like home to us. Like we were always looking for somewhere else. So as soon as we could take a trip or go on vacation, it was a scouting mission. Where do we want to end up in the world and my husband has a specific dream that he wants to find a spot to buy some land. And he wants to build a couple little simple cabins and rent them out and have his own hospitality business. So that's a huge dream of ours to see that come to life. And so we wanted to travel we wanted to see, try out some places. And we originally were looking at tiny houses, we've always been minimalist, we never had a lot of stuff to begin with. We have small place anyway. And we went and rented and stayed in tiny house. And it was neat. My husband wasn't really as into it, because he's very practical. And he said, you know, all this stuff's gonna break. When you travel the tiny house, they're not meant to travel as much. And so we started looking at RVs, and thought What about an Airstream? And neither of us had ever been in an Airstream we'd never seen one in person, we'd never been RVing before. I mean, we've been camping, like in a tent before plenty of times, but never actually stepped foot in an RV, as in like stayed in it. So luckily for us, there was an Airstream dealer, pretty close to us in the Twin Cities area. And so we went over there and we toured. And I just I remember locking eyes with my husband and thinking we could do this, we could really make this work. And he got on board, he was always the skeptic and and he's really I'm so thankful that I happened because I couldn't do this without him. He's so handy. So that's how it came about. Like the airstream will give us the freedom to scout places to learn about what different climates and communities are like and still have our home and all of that.

Michael Kithcart: 

Wow. Okay, so you went from I've never even been in an RV to making your life the RV in the airstream.

Eva Lovisa: 

Yes, yes. And we learned in it, you know, from other people that we're doing this that usually people have a several year plan. You know, we we kept seeing people say my two year plan to going full time in the RV is this and we're currently at this step. Well, Nick and I did it in about two or three months. So it was I wouldn't recommend that to everybody, because it was very stressful. But I'm so glad we did it. Because with the RV market the way it is now we probably would have been on a waiting list and would have, you know, been homeless, because we sold our condo pretty quickly. And so I'm really glad we were able to get a used airstream, it was just a couple years old, it was only a two hours away from our house. I mean, it just, the stars aligned for us. And we got it. So that was fantastic.

Michael Kithcart: 

Oh my god, I love it and love so many things about this. So now, where do you how do you decide where it is that you're going to go?

Eva Lovisa: 

Well, yes, that's that's a huge thing. We did a lot of research. We also I mean, we are dead serious about trying to find our place in the United States here. And so we actually hired a relocation consultants a couple years ago, and he mainly works with people who are figuring out where they want to settle when they retire. You know, it's so he was very surprised to have these, you know, working aged 30 somethings called him up, and asked him to, you know, interview us and, you know, our hobbies and, you know, like what we like in a place and scenery and climate law that and he gave us a list of places in the US. And so our goal has been to just hit those spend enough time in each place and see, you know, could this be our place? And so that's what we've been doing.

Michael Kithcart: 

That is brilliant. Okay, see, how long have you been on the road?

Eva Lovisa: 

It's been probably seven months. We've been in the RV eight and a half months, but we stayed close to Minnesota just to make sure you know that nothing was breaking. You know, we're brand new to this. So we wanted to be close in case we needed to have service. So but yeah, probably about seven months we've been traveling.

Michael Kithcart: 

Okay, and where was the first spot you went?

Eva Lovisa: 

Well, we first had to go over to South Dakota of all places, because we actually changed our domicile. That's another thing about living in an RV. You know, we didn't we needed to have a home away from home since we were technically nomads now. And so there are three states that are very popular for that there's Texas, Florida and South Dakota. And so we had to change our cities, our residency to be South Dakota's people so we had to go get our driver's license done and all that so that was our first stop was Rapid City.

Michael Kithcart: 

Okay, I get Texas and Florida with climate and all that type of thing. What is it about South Dakota that makes it an RV destination?

Eva Lovisa: 

Yes, that's a really good question. I think it's just that they they make the process very simple. We literally only had to stay overnight there 24 hours, I think it was to become state residents. It's kind of insane. So. So that's what we did. It was super easy. It was so close, given that we're from Minnesota, already. So so that's the plan that we that we took first.

Michael Kithcart: 

Okay, so in addition to having to determine your residency, what are some other things that you got a crash course in around the RV life?

Eva Lovisa: 

Oh, my goodness, insurance. Oh, we were actually robbed our our last day moving out of our condo in Minneapolis. And so that was the start of our adventure was just me having our whole life turned into turmoil basically. So we had to, you know, figure out what's insurable you know, after that it really woke us up what is insurable in our home there's there's only currently to my knowledge at this time, one insurance dealer that actually gives full time you know, RVers insurance for their belongings. So, so we learned all that we got all our ducks in a row that way. Yeah, so that's been huge was the insurance angle.

Michael Kithcart: 

So the night before it was all your stuff in the airstream and then you got robbed, like you got cleaned out of all your stuff.

Eva Lovisa: 

We're actually robbed in Minneapolis moving out of our condos, we were moving furniture that my husband built my husband's also an amazing furniture maker. So we are moving that into a moving truck. And, and so my purse, my backpack, my phone, my wallet, my keys, everything was taken. And so all of our big stuff, you know, they didn't take our dining table or anything like that, but, but all my stuff was taken while my back was turned on. So it was it was a really sad day.

Michael Kithcart: 

Oh.

Eva Lovisa: 

Yeah, really, really hard. And it was, um, it always felt very safe in our community. And so it's just kind of ironic how that happened. The very last day we were in that yard was the day we got robbed. Yeah.

Michael Kithcart: 

I just I'm sorry to hear that. And yet, you just, it certainly made even more of a clean break. Right?

Eva Lovisa: 

I did. I was like, Good riddance, Minneapolis. No offense to any of my family or friends who still live there. But we were just like, Oh my gosh, I can't wait to leave this place. But, you know, in hindsight, learn so much and everything's replaceable. I mean, that's the big lesson was like, Nick and I were safe. You know, there wasn't anybody. We heard other stories of people being held up by gunpoint recently, in the same area. We had all the George Floyd activity that time last year when this happened. And so there was a lot of there was a lot of violence and just unrest, you know. And so it was it was an odd time for all of us in Minneapolis. I think and, and so that's how it affected us was that part but but yeah, it really put things into perspective. You know, we're very, very careful. Got our ducks in a row with the insurance moving forward. And just really, that was a huge wake up call to me on what is important, what is important, and what do I want to focus on? And it wasn't it wasn't just, you know, the money or the things you know, it was the experiences and how I could find joy. That's what I want.

Michael Kithcart: 

Yeah, well, great attitude to have, which I'm sure has come in handy at other times. So you started out in South Dakota. What other destinations Have you already been to?

Eva Lovisa: 

Oh, gosh, our original plan was to go over to Yellowstone after that and then go south down to Tucson. But there were all those wildfires. So it was a weird year 2020 and so we actually took a safer route and when around that it was a little less scenic. So we had to go through Nebraska, you know, and all that and we did get to see a little bit of Colorado, and we didn't get to stay long because it was it was getting cold. So we had to get down south fast and then we made it to Tucson so and we've been all around here it's just being beautiful that we wintered here so we're getting pretty familiar with the Tucson area.

Michael Kithcart: 

Have you seen Nomad land?

Eva Lovisa: 

I haven't!

Michael Kithcart: 

Well, and and people are living the RV life for lots of different reasons. Right? So you're you're doing yours 100% by choice, so it's not the same but I think they do a good job of, you know, capturing like the community that comes together by living in similar ways. And I'm curious, what kind of themes maybe you've picked up on since you've been RVing. Like, what's the RV life like? Is there like, characteristics that seemed pretty common amongst all of you?

Eva Lovisa: 

Oh yeah, you know, there's all different kinds, there's different little groups, depending on what kind of vehicle you have. So, you know, with being an airstreamer, if you ever see another airstreamer, you immediately go over and talk to them. And you know, it's just, it's funny. But then there's also there's van life people, there's the schoolie people with the renovated school buses, you know, it's just so many types. But I've always felt very safe. And I've always felt very welcomed by whoever our neighbor is, everybody is so nice. They just want to be outside, whether they're doing this for the weekend, or if they're doing it full time, or just seasonally. They're very friendly folks, and they just want to enjoy nature. That's the big theme I've seen is it just want to be out here and have some quiet. And so that's been fun. We've met some really fun, interesting neighbors along the way. You know, people who we've exchanged, you know, social media information to keep in touch with them. It's just been really a good experience. There's definitely a community in here. There's so many people are curious about doing the nomadic life or, you know, RV or van life, and they worry that they'll be so isolated. And anywhere you go, especially if you're going to be camping or doing free camping, you're going to find people and everybody is so friendly and nice in our experience.

Michael Kithcart: 

Okay. That's great to hear. So you've spent most of your time in Tucson or in and around that area. What's what are some of the other places that are on your list that you'll eventually get to?

Eva Lovisa: 

Yes, well, we're getting ready for our next big trip was going to be this summer, we're going to be heading north. And we're going to be checking out Utah, I've never been to like Bryce Canyon, or Zion or Moab. So we're going to go to all those places, you know, Salt Lake City, Ogden, and then we're also going to go up to Idaho and check out Boise and, and then finally get to Yellowstone since we didn't get to do it last fall. And then on the way back down, we're gonna head back down to Tucson again in the winter, because it's just the nicest warmest place to be in the wintertime our walls are only two inches thick. So it's, you know, it's really nice to get as much warmth as we can in the wintertime. And then we'll go through a little bit of Colorado on the way down, we're gonna go check out Durango. So lots of variety, lots of elevation changes, and I always am fascinated by the the plants, you know, growing outside, you know, what's around me, so I just love seeing the scenery and the different ecosystems.

Michael Kithcart: 

Yeah, that is fantastic. That's just it sounds amazing. How has RVing, going to the airstreamlife, it- because I need to say Airstream because I think Airstream is a very particular group. I have a friend who just renovated an Airstream. And like, I would think that they're your you know, they start to be your people. And what would you say has impacted your lives the most? With Airstream living?

Eva Lovisa: 

Oh, gosh, there are different considerations that things you take for granted in what they call a sticks and bricks, housing situation. You know,

Michael Kithcart: 

I love it sticks and bricks, it's like bridge and tunnel in New York.

Eva Lovisa: 

Yes. And, uh, you know, earlier, we were having a little bit of connectivity issues, you know, we have what they call mobile internet. And so it's specifically for people who travel full time, whether you're in a sailboat or an RV, they have solutions for you. But we've had trouble and given that Nick and I both work online for our careers, you know, full time and we need to be able to transfer upload things, you know, large file sizes, we've gone through three routers, we're back to the same company we started with, we've gone through multiple plans. So we're figuring that out. So our lives have changed a lot in terms of we're very conscious about our internet. We're also very conscious, we like to live off grid so we have Nick my handy husband equipped our Airstream with solar power. So we got a roomful of solar. So we're very mindful of our, our power that we're using during the day. And also our water supplies since we just have you know, we fill up our tank when we can and then we just, you know, use a little bit of water here and there. So that's drastically changed. And, and also we're just very much more and this is a very good benefit, I think very much more connected to the environment we have these huge panoramic windows in the airstream on both ends, we can always see a beautiful sunrise and a sunset every day. It's just gorgeous. And, you know, we know what's happening with the weather. I mean, you really hear it when it rains or, or when it when the wind blows, you feel it. And then when it's hot out, or if it's cold, even you're very, very in tune with that. And that has actually been really fun for me, because I felt like when I was in the condo in Minneapolis on the third level, you know, I just felt so far away from nature, even though I had a tree outside my door to look at or my window to look at, but it's just really nice being on the ground and being able to just open your door and step outside. And, you know, one time we saw bighorn sheep, when we were outside in, in the Badlands. And it's just like, wow, you don't see that every day. You know, they're just right outside our door. So that's how I think it's changed the most is just connecting us to nature. And then just being mindful of our utilities and, and all that.

Michael Kithcart: 

Yeah, that's, those are like lifelong impacting choices that you're making, certainly, but just even realizations of like what really matters most to you.

Eva Lovisa: 

Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I mean, this year has been hard. I mean, a lot of people have this idea that Nick and I are just on vacation all the time. And Nick and I were just talking yesterday is like, should we take a vacation because we have not stopped working since we got moved into the airstream. And he was installing the solar and you know, renovating everything and, and so it was just go go go and then moving and selling a house and selling your cars and selling off most of your stuff. I mean, it was a lot of go, go go. And I was like, we should probably take a little time this summer. Like maybe we should take a couple long weekends and actually do things we want to do, you know. So yeah, it's really helped us slow down. And you know, cuz I was I was telling you before an email when we're talking about this that I fully admit I'm a workaholic. And so having a solar powered house really has helped me I can't work through the night all the time unless we have a generator going. But the nice thing is I don't know how to get the generator going. My husband does and I think I should keep it that way because he never works overnight, but I do so. So that kind of keeps me in check. That's great. Solar powered house. Yeah.

Michael Kithcart: 

Nick, if you're listening don't teach her how to use the generator. Well, let's also talk about because Okay, you and Nick are both entrepreneurs, you and you're in the web business, but you also decided to shift and start Lucky Yarrow. So tell me about that company.

Eva Lovisa: 

Yes, this has been my my dream. I mean, what's what got me into web design and, and graphic design was I wanted to help entrepreneurs bring their dreams to life. And now I'm finally doing this for myself, Michael. Oh my gosh, it feels amazing.

Michael Kithcart: 

Good job, Eva.

Eva Lovisa: 

Thank you. I've always been very, very passionate about health and especially natural health. I love nature so much and, and so it's always been something you did, I became an herbalist. I took all these, any kind of classes I could take about alternative healing, I took it, I read books, as all I do in my free time is just read and learn and, and it's helped me so much that I started just, you know, I started just helping whoever asked me for help and wanted to help, you know, even if it was free, I was just starting out. And I thought well, I don't know what this is what I did. And it's kind of snowballed into me consulting with people and and, and so now I was Lucky Yarrow, I'm putting it all together all this accumulated stuff that I've done with people over the years and to a program that I'm hoping is going to be like a three month kind of program. I have somebody that's right in the middle of the process with me right now. And she's just been a godsend for me, I'm so grateful for her. She's enjoying it very much so but but the whole thing is I just I want to help women feel beautiful and vibrant and whole. And the natural health community there's an emphasis on what do you do to be healthy? And so they're, they're like, you know, eat this food and take these herbs and you know, but there's so much more to that. I mean, you as a coach, you know, mindset is huge. And so I tell these women that you know you can eat all the kale you want you can you can take every herb that you know is recommended for you. But if you're thinking bad thoughts about yourself every day, it's not going to do you any good and so really have to work on self esteem. And that was the big thing for me. How do I help women develop self esteem and I had to go through this myself too. I think that's the other part of how I know that this is something that it feels so right for me. I mean, it makes me very happy to do obviously, that's one clue. But the other thing is, I think it's really important to think about the challenges that each of us face in life. And using, you know, that we've overcome, and to share that knowledge with other people who could also benefit from it. And so that was a big thing for me from going from a place. I know, you don't know this about we, Michael, we have a professional relationship, but I struggled with mental health for many years. And I had depression and I was, you know, on antidepressants, I had a psychiatrist, I wanted to end my life, and I just I had an eating disorder for 20 years. I mean, I was in a bad place. I didn't like me, and I didn't know who I was. And in hindsight, that wasn't very fair. Because you have to know who you are in order to dislike yourself, right? So I had all these assumptions about who I should have been. And that wasn't me, and and so I wasn't owning up to those, and I disliked myself. And I found that a lot of the women who came to me, they come to me with concerns about their physical health, you know, whether they got some hormonal things, or maybe they have digestive stuff, you know, that kind of stuff. But I want to know, you know, there's so much more to that there's so much more to that, like how you think and, and, sorry, I'm losing my train of thought here. But anyway, so I find that these women don't really like themselves. And they have the same problems that I had. And I thought, Wait, we can't even talk about diet or herbs until we get to the root cause of this. And so that has been my thing is focusing on who these people are, who are you as person? And what are your gifts? What are your strengths, what is your maximum contribution to humanity, and let's focus on that and forget about trying to be somebody else. And what I found was that a lot of my health issues dramatically improved. When I started doing that with myself, and now I'm taking other people through that process. And people are like, I feel so much happier, like, things are just aligning for me, I know, this is who I am. And that's, you know, I'm not trying to be that other person anymore. And I have more confidence, and well, that symptom really, drastically decreased. So it's this weird kind of, it's very holistic, you know, I tell everybody is very holistic. I mean, I'm looking at what they do for a living, I'm looking at who they're in a relationship with, who they surround themselves with, how they think, what they eat, you know, all that kind of stuff, but and their activity levels and their sleep and all that. But, yeah, so it's, it's been a whirlwind. And I'm so excited about it.

Michael Kithcart: 

You can hear it, I can hear it in your voice. And I mean, you're very energetic person anyway, from my experience with you, but it's just like your voice sounds different when you're talking about Lucky Yarrow. And, you know, to be able to share your own story with people who are going through a phase, not a phase, but they're, they're going through a situation that you've been through, and you can show them that you've gotten on the other side. And these are some of the things that have been helpful, helpful to you. And maybe for them is incredibly powerful, incredibly powerful. So

Eva Lovisa: 

Gosh, I it's just I mean, for anybody who's looking for what, what their purposes, you know, I'm sure there's, there's somebody out there that has some questions about what am I here to do? Find the thing that just lights you up? I mean, that that was the set the sign that I needed, because I question and doubt myself an awful lot. But helping having somebody tell me that because of you, I didn't give up. And because of you my life is better. I mean, there is nothing better on earth than that. I mean, I would, I would give all the money in the world to just have that feeling every day to be able to be of service in such a meaningful way to women. Like it makes me so happy. So that's how I know that no matter what, I'm going to make this happen. Yeah.

Michael Kithcart: 

And you are you are doing it. I have a I would love a clarification on understanding what is an herbalist?

Eva Lovisa: 

Yes, you know, and I don't want to speak for all herbalist. I can only speak for what for what I do. But I see myself as a detective, and also a matchmaker. And so I really am obsessed with the old old styles of plant medicine, you know, whether it's ayurveda or traditional Chinese medicine or, you know, just indigenous populations, whatever it is, they were all the best healers were people who were very observant of whoever they were trying to help. So I really look into personality. I really I studied body language I study what somebody looks like I studied the tone of their voice, how they speak, all of that, whether they use hand motions, you know what kind of head motions do they use, like, very, very observant, and then I can tell play matchmaker with what kind of plants would help this person balance, In a way? I mean, that's all. That's all we're doing, you know, plants help shift our body in a way so we can be more in balanced. And it's very possible to misuse plants, even what they consider safe ones to unbalance yourself. So that's why I think it is important to educate yourself or work with somebody who can help you find a good match with plants.

Michael Kithcart: 

Yeah, I well, and then you you talked earlier, too, about just your ability to be in nature constantly. So to have that be in alignment with what you're creating with Lucky Yarrow with becoming an herbalist. All of that just feels like you've been able to expand all those pieces of you Eva by living the airstream life.

Eva Lovisa: 

Yes, I'd 100% agree this has been a very good supportive decision to our life and I, if anybody's considering it or thinking about it, definitely try it. Even if you just rent an RV for a long weekend. Just try it out and see. I mean, that's, that's a great first step. But I, I'm so happy we made this decision.

Michael Kithcart: 

That's great. And do you see this as being your life indefinitely? Or do you? Do you have a timeline of when you would like to find the piece of land with the cabins?

Eva Lovisa: 

Oh, yes. I mean, well, originally Our plan was, let's give it a year and see what happens. And now we're thinking we're gonna have to give it at least two years, and that feels completely fine for us. And if it's three, that's okay, too. We're very comfortable living in the trailer together. I mean, are one of my friends who knows both Nick and I, he said, Do you guys even like each other anymore? It's helped our marriage so much. I mean, we both agree, we feel closer and more in love with each other than ever before. So, you know, you don't have to worry about like, you know, your life falling apart or your marriage or your significant other not making it work, it is possible to have everything just become better, even in a smaller space.

Michael Kithcart: 

That's great testament. So, Eva, you I just know anybody who's listening, there's a piece of your story that is sparking some ideas in people. And so if if people want to follow you, or kind of be on the journey with you, how do they, How are they able to connect with you?

Eva Lovisa: 

Oh, yeah, that's a really good question. So www.luckyyarrow.com is my website. It's in progress. You know, I make websites for other people but I haven't really gotten the ball as far as I want to on my own. But you can contact me through there otherwise, [email protected], you can reach out to me, email there. You can follow us on Instagram. My Instagram handle is EvaLovisa3. That's the number three. And you can see pictures of our Airstream and our travels and our little cat joint he loves that your stream life. So if you have pets, you can make it work.

Michael Kithcart: 

That is great. Well, even if we aren't all you know, being mobile like you are we can we can get our wanderlust needs met by following you. So Eva, thank you so much for sharing your story. And I'm just wishing you all the best, especially with Lucky Yarrow.

Eva Lovisa: 

Oh thank you so much. Michael, this was so much fun to catch up. And thank you.

Michael Kithcart: 

Yes. And thank you so much for listening to the podcast. Hey, if you're getting a lot of value from these episodes, would you please share this podcast on your social- social channels easy for me to say? Chances are there are others in your network, like your family and friends that might find benefit from these episodes, too. And if you'd like to find out more about other episodes and other insights, follow me on Instagram at @MichaelKithcart. And finally, I'd like to ask that you take a moment and rate the podcast on iTunes. I'd be really grateful if you'd leave me a review to this way I can help more people and amplify the voices of the great guests that come on the podcast. Thanks for listening and I'll catch you on the next episode.

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