Erik Therwanger on Chaos
Season 2, Episode 18
Summary:
“The military and the business sector just handle chaos differently.” – Erik Therwanger
Cancer, Combat and Covid. What do all three of these have in common? Chaos and Erik Therwanger. He uses his personal, professional and service experiences to help businesses and teams reach new levels of success. As the Founder of Think GREAT, Erik sees a great opportunity with returning work forces to have CEOs and managers lead in a different way to create work cultures that represent a new era post COVID. He shares how he’s counted on his Marine training to navigate other chaotic times in his life, and how understanding the three stages of chaos can better equip leaders and build better teams.
Links:
Think Great Experience Podcast
Masterclass: How to Move from Exhausted to Energized: For Leader on the Brink of Burnout
Transcript:
Michael Kithcart:
Hello, I'm Michael Kithcart. I'm a high performance business coach and entrepreneur who helps worn out achievers win their way in business and in life. Welcome to the Champions of RISK Podcast, where we examine the many aspects of risks so that we can all face uncertainty with more strength, courage and some humor together. We know that we've all been navigating uncertainty for the last 14 to 15 months with COVID. And now that businesses are starting to bring back the workforce, what's the impact going to be on the way that we socialize the way that we work together, and the way that we lead? That is what we are going to discuss today with my guest, Erik Therwanger, he is the founder of Think Great, and draws from his experiences as a US Marine, executive, business leader, sales professional and entrepreneur to help organizations achieve new levels of success. Erik is also a well known speaker, he has a TED talk, which is fantastic on Millennials Are Not the Issue. And he's also the host of the Think Great Experience podcast. Erik, welcome to champions of risk.
Erik Therwanger:
Hey, Michael, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited today.
Michael Kithcart:
Thank you. I am to this is this is going to be a juicy conversation.
Erik Therwanger:
Oh, yeah.
Michael Kithcart:
And so I want to just set the stage, you've had a lot of success in different industries and arenas in life that led you to starting Think Great. Give us some context of how your experiences led you to starting Think Great.
Erik Therwanger:
Yeah, absolutely. I think great was started, the idea was about 2008. And by that point, I had served in the Marine Corps, I was an air traffic controller and the Marines, I served during the time period of the Gulf War got out right after the Gulf War. I went to film school, worked in the film industry for a number of years, got married. And about 10 months after I was married. My wife was diagnosed with stage three non Hodgkins lymphoma. So we had some chaos on the homefront with a health issue. And I was her caregiver for a full year during the treatments and during the recovery. A few years later, she was diagnosed with basal cell cancer. So she had her second bout. And at this point, I was now in the entertainment industry. So I've gone to film school, and gotten out for a while to be her caregiver and pursued a career in sales, financial services, sales, I knew nothing about financial services and nothing about sales, I just, I needed to make money to put food on the table. That was it.
Michael Kithcart:
But that's probably why you were so good at it.
Erik Therwanger:
I was literally hungry. So I did the financial services side of things for about four years and started to get really good at it. I started to understand sales from a different perspective, went back into the film industry. And I had to start off entry level. That was all that was available at the time. And started at a media company in southern California. And within about 18 months, I became the vice president of the company, I started to introduce some success topics or leadership and strategic planning and sales. And around 2008, we were on our pathway to grow over 300%. It was awesome. And I just felt that I was destined to do something with all the combined experiences; Marine Corps caregiver, executive business leader, and I just wrote two words on a napkin at a coffee shop in in gray Hills, California. And it was Think Great. And as I was sitting there I realized I didn't want to teach people just to think good, I wanted them to think great, no matter what circumstance they face. Because leading up to that point, people were asking me, well, how did you handle this? or What was your technique for doing this? And it was always about going through some form of chaos. And so think great really started off as a personal development company that was focused on goal setting. So we use goal setting a lot to help people think great. And then people started saying, Well, can you help us out with sales goals? Or we have a leadership team? Can you help us in these arenas? So it really spread from goal setting, to leadership to planning to sales to communication, and so on and so forth and even led to a TED Talks. So it's been, it's been a crazy journey that started with chaos.
Michael Kithcart:
Okay, and so, for you, for your, from your perspective, what is the definition of chaos?
Erik Therwanger:
So I think when you look at chaos, there's there's really three phases of chaos. There's, there's the great obstacle, so we have an obstacle, that could be cancer, that could be COVID-19. That could be combat. It doesn't matter, you have chaos. So there's an obstacle that we face, and then there's a transition out of that obstacle. So we're impacted by the obstacle, we learn some new things, and we transition out then we get to this great new era. So chaos is really a way of overcoming obstacles. Chaos are the obstacles in your pathway and those phases allow you to overcome them and come out greener on the other end. But everybody handles cows differently. Everybody defines cast differently. So, you know, for my wife and I cancer was chaos four times, she went on to have breast cancer also in melanoma, so for balance of four different cancers. And then that led to many years later, she suffered cardiac arrest from all of the treatments and died, she passed away while I was doing CPR on her. And they brought her back after the third hit with the defibrillator. So for me, chaos is really anything that is in front of us, causing us to have to take our game to the next level, right? Anything is trying to block us from success. And that can be personal or professional.
Michael Kithcart:
Yes, I don't want to overlook the fact that you have said that your wife has had four bouts of cancer. And she has died. She is still with us. And and and so what is her state today.
Erik Therwanger:
So she made virtually a full recovery from everything, minus the side effects of the treatments. So she had to go through chemotherapy, radiation, stem cell transplant, after the cardiac arrest she had has a weaker heart than we do. Her ejection fraction rate is lower than ours. So she does have a Medtronic defibrillator in her chest to monitor her heart rhythm. But yeah, she's she helped me run our company Think Great. She helped me run our foundation, obviously runs the family. I help her with that. But she does most of that.
Michael Kithcart:
Yeah, that's amazing. And, you know, so many people have lost loved ones over the last year, specifically, unexpectedly, around COVID, or lots of other reasons to what would you say, and how do you and your wife help others navigate loss or huge transition as a result of family dynamics like you've experienced?
Erik Therwanger:
And that's a fantastic question. It's one of our number one questions. In fact, I lost my mom three weeks ago to COVID.
Michael Kithcart:
Oh my goodness.
Erik Therwanger:
She passed away. Now she had some underlying issues. She had dementia for a long time, and we took care of her for the last, you know, she's been with us in our house for over 10 years. But I'll share with you the very first now now I'm considered a motivational, inspirational speaker. But before that, I was a caregiver. And the very first inspirational idea I had was when Gina had cancer the first time. And often when you have incidents of cancer, there's a lot of unknowns. And that can be when somebody's sick, that could be the pandemic, that could be when somebody dies, there's a lot of unknowns ahead. And what I told her has stuck with us this whole time. So since 1999, I said to her, let's go from
Michael Kithcart:
I think I love the name Think Great. You know, point A today to point B, with the best attitudes possible. And we had to come to the realization that we didn't know where point B was, what it was, or when it was, and it could have been that she might not have made it. And we were determined, and it wasn't always easy. But we will go back to that saying, Let's remember, we're point A to point B, we're point A to point B. And we would go there with the best attitudes possible. And that really helped us certainly had an attitude of gratitude. We're very grateful for the time we had together, we are grateful for family grateful for friends, we're very appreciative. It doesn't mean we're happy every day. Cancer beat you up in many ways as does COVID-19 the pandemic, but e made the decision to set our indsets in the right direction. nd that's helped tremendously. nd that helped during the pandemic to point A to point B. it's it's part of your, your company, you're talking about having the right mindset. And one of the things and we both coach leaders and we meet people in lots of different time points in their life. And there is some type of struggle usually the pain point is is great enough. And that's why they're they're seeking, you know, others, a coach. Let's talk just for a moment the importance of the ability to think in a way and how that impacts the ability to have certain outcomes. So from your experience, tell me how you approach mindset and thinking.
Erik Therwanger:
Mindset is so critical, because mindset dictates our ability to take the actions we know we need to take. And so when our mindset is off, our actions are going to be off. And I feel that from a leadership perspective. We need to be in control of our mindset, even though there's things out there trying to tear it down. We have to be in control of our mindset as leaders, if people are our greatest asset, so so if we have the ideology that people are our greatest asset, which as you know, as a leadership coach, everybody says yes to this question, are people your greatest asset? Yes, they always say it. So if that's the case, if that really is the foundation that people are our greatest asset, then you have to take on the trait of unselfishness. Which means that the team is more important than the leader to the end the leaders perspective. In other words, as I learned to the rink, or you look out for the marine to your left and the brain to your right, not just yourself, of course, you, you want to take care of yourself, but they become a priority. If my mindset is off, I can't really look out for them. And so this is this really taps into another phenomenon that I believe in called activating the Power of Who. More important than why we do something, is who we're doing it for. And when we can attach a who to an objective or a goal, or whatever we're working on, we become unstoppable, you know, often let ourselves down, but we won't let the person to our left or right down or somebody we care about. So that mindset, my mindset is really about how can I best take care of somebody else? How can I be there to support them. And then my own problems don't become as daunting,
Michael Kithcart:
Right. And that's also a good connection, too. Because sometimes people they're their own wellness is not their priority, right. And so when in in an effort to get them to do something that is also good for them, attaching it to who else that helps for it can actually be the, the igniter for them to start doing things that they have absolutely been willing to do before. So you are a Marine Corps veteran, as you stated, and I'm curious, how has the training that you received through the the military contributed to your preparation for handling navigating uncertainty and, and the chaos?
Erik Therwanger:
You know, the military and the business sector, they just handle chaos differently. And so when I got out of the Marine Corps 1991, so 30 years ago, so I've been a civilian for a long time, I've seen how businesses handle it, and it's completely different. And you can't do everything that the military does. But when they start you off in the onboarding phase, also known as boot camp, they introduce you to chaos. Now, they're yelling and screaming and calling you names. And you can't take that back to the workplace that might get you fired. But they put you in what they call a fog of war. They disorient you, they confuse you. And yet you still have these obstacles to to negotiate, and navigate. And so you're operating in chaos, so that that when the real chaos happens, you're able to stay in control. So from the get go, the military knows they're going to put you in chaos. So they training for chaos, the business sector, however, everything they do for their people is to avoid chaos, avoid it, avoid it, avoid it. You can't avoid COVID-19, you can't avoid social distancing. You can't avoid the masks, you can't avoid this, that the next thing, all the restrictions, we're all in it. And so the business sector wasn't really prepared for the mental toll on the chaos. But yet, when I speak to veterans or I speak to active duty military, this is just another obstacle to them. It's an obstacle than negotiate, they're not going to let it slow them up. Even when you think about it, we're still in combat situations in the military, there's still conflict out there. So they have COVID, and the conflict. And they put the mask on and they do what they need to do. So I feel that while you don't want to create a boot camp environment, this is a learning lesson for all of us that we've been through chaos. We need to invest more in teaching people how to handle chaos, and also how to transition back from it. We're not we're not prepared for what's about to come with the transition phase.
Michael Kithcart:
Right? And why do you think people avoid chaos?
Erik Therwanger:
You know, it's just not a fun word. I think that I think that if our drill instructor said would you like to have chaos today or not? We probably would have said not. So they never made it an option. And I feel that people avoid it, because they always hope things will work out well. But it doesn't prepare you for the steps you need to take the mindset you need to have when real chaos happens. Just as most people who are caregivers, you didn't have a lot of ramp up time. You know my wife heard the three words you know, you have cancer. And the next day I was a caregiver. So there wasn't a lot of ramp up time prep time. There was no school I went to, it would have been nice. All of a sudden you're just in it kind of the same thing. Everybody went remote. You're just remote. Now your virtual very little ramp up time. I think Gallup said by about a month after the pandemic was declared 62% of the workforce were remote. And if you look at that, that was great. They did a great job, businesses did a great job, they got their zoom sessions, go to webinar, whatever their platform was, and people were remote. They just had no preparation for the emotional toll of all the social distancing. So I feel that people avoid chaos just by nature, we're going to we're going to avoid it, because it doesn't feel good. But it feels worse when you're in it, you haven't prepared for it.
Michael Kithcart:
Right? And you don't have the tools and you don't know how to get yourself through it.
Erik Therwanger:
That's right.
Michael Kithcart:
Yeah. And, and in the absence of prepared chaos, what do we get.
Erik Therwanger:
So you get a lot of uncertainty. And, and you also have a lot of leaders who are just not to prepare to navigate that portion of the leadership journey. They don't know what to say, they don't know what to do. They're not sure how to act. And they're very unarmed to be there for their teams. And yet, if you really think about leadership, if leadership is the people side of our business, if people are our greatest asset, then as leaders, we need to be for them, be there for them when they need us the most. And they need us the most right now. But because most people haven't been developed as leaders, they don't know what to do when they are on duty, right. So they're on call right now as a leader, and they're not prepared. So you have a lot of leaders that aren't sharing information. So people may not feel informed, you have a lot of leaders that are very reactionary right now. So they're not taking that proactive stance that their team needs. And they're actually going to cause a lot of turnover. inadvertently, they'll cause turnover in their organizations, because people will separate themselves from the negative feelings about an obstacle. So during a transition phase, the second phase of cast, people will leave, we just want to be away from it, just like many people leave the military after combat, or after deployment, they go okay, I still love my country. I still love my branch of service. But I'm going to separate myself from that. And we're going into the transition phase right now. So for leaders who are listening, who want to increase retention, this is the time to step up as leaders, this is when the team needs you the most.
Michael Kithcart:
Yes. Okay, so let's talk about that a little bit more in the transition phase, put it in perspective for us, because when military comes back from a deployment, right, and they are coming back into their home environment, they're going back to maybe the city that they grew up in the home that that family, but they're not the same person. And we are not the same people that we were the last time we were in our, you know, our traditional "work environment."
Erik Therwanger:
Yeah.
Michael Kithcart:
What can we learn from how military has had to navigate, coming back in a similar situation, but being completely different?
Erik Therwanger:
When you look at it from the military standpoint, you have highly trained, highly disciplined, loyal, dedicated people that actually will go take that hit for you. They'll take a bullet for you, they'll jump on a grenade for you. They'll do all that and they operate efficiently during chaos during that obstacle phase. But it's not uncommon for most military for most servicemembers, that the transition phase is the hardest, whether they went overseas, whether they went to combat or not, they could transition back from combat transition back from a deployment or just transition, how to service the transition phases, typically the most difficult. The the obstacle phase is pretty regimented, just as COVID has been the obstacle phase, stay six feet apart, you know, socially distance curbside pickup, wear your mask, rule, rule, rule, rule, rule. But the transition phase, to get to your, I'm gonna say the overused cliche already, but the new norm, and then we will, we already don't like it. The transition for servicemembers to get to their new life isn't as detailed, there's not as many rules and there's more variables. And so they can very much feel alone on that portion of the journey. And that's why in the military, there's so many transition programs available for highly dedicated and loyal people. They struggle, the most of the transition, but it's not really limited to the military. When Gina had cancer, the first time she had a year of treatments, stem cell transplant, radiation, chemotherapy, you name it. So we were in the obstacle for a year. And I'll never forget after the stem cell transplant happened, and they said, Well, she's in remission. They said, you can take her home now. And what? What, what? So, you know, they're basically saying have her go enjoy her new life. Nobody mapped out the transition phase four. So I have a cancer patient who is now healed in my car and I'm driving home going, Whoa, what now? Um, you know, she's still bald, she's still frail, she was covered up because she couldn't be in the sun, she was wearing sunglasses. And there was no transition phase for me. And the transition was actually the hardest for us, because that's where the signs of the stress came out. So just as military deals, so the end of war is great, you know, it's over the tour of duty is over the person's coming home. That's when we see the signs of PTSD. But PTSD is stress. It's not it's not military disorder. It's not. It's not isolated for the military. Gina and I both had stress during the year for treatments. It was noticeable during the recovery during the transition phase, we noticed, in fact, we were warned by her oncologist that most marriages fall apart after they go into remission. And I'm like, Are you kidding me? That's more bad news. So, so knowing the transition phase was coming. And he said, that's the hardest phase, we prepared in advance. That's what we came up with the point A to point B, best attitude, we open more communication. And we did things to make sure we made it through the transition, because the transition, that's when people fall apart. And so if you think about COVID-19, it's been over a year, even longer than a military deployment, which is crazy when you put it in that perspective. And we had all the regulations. And now we just want to go back to this new norm, the normalcy which I call the great new era. So we're going into a great new era, just like he said, he will never be the same, we will be better, we will be greater. But we have the transition phase. And this is when people fall apart. So people have been stressed over the last 14 months. I mean, and it's not just COVID this chaos had COVID, civil unrest and election year, unlike anything we've ever seen, kids learning from school. So, so many layers of this obstacle, we can't just put them all back in a room kids or adults or co workers, and think that we're going to achieve this new era without dealing with the transition phase. And it's at this point, we'll notice the stress, we're going to notice the PTSD in our people during this phase.
Michael Kithcart:
Yes. And so how do leaders get prepared to be able to handle this?
Erik Therwanger:
So our program, we have a we created a program during this because leaders started to reach out to saying I'm struggling right now. And you're talking days into the pandemic, they were already feeling the impact of the obstacle. And we noticed the impact was around communication, accountability, delegation, morale, some of the the easier ones to identify what will we call the short term symptoms. So we started to put together a way that leaders can create unification in a world of distancing, because it's, it's the distancing that's having the biggest impact. You know, the CDC gave us three guidelines, right? Wash your hands, okay, I think we're all on the same page, we should do that, anyways, wear a mask, okay, it's not my favorite thing to do. But I'll do it. And then the biggie was stay away from each other. And that impact is huge. So leaders, it's not just bringing them back together, it's bringing them back properly. And I really look at three phases. In this, I look at unifying the leadership team. Right now we're seeing throughout all of the workplace, which leaders are unified and which aren't. And these small gaps and leadership could be overlooked during good times, but we're not in the good times. And so these become bigger and bigger and more evidence. So we work on connecting and making cohesion between the core leaders, usually the C suite, or the executives or the inner circle, if you will, depending on the size of the company. Once we have cohesion there, we start to create connection between all team members. So if people are our greatest asset, they're at their strongest when they're connected. And COVID-19, or the pandemic has disrupted the connection we have with each other. Hence, my leadership book is actually called the leadership connection. It was named that before the pandemic because as leaders, we need to connect our people, you know that the links are strongest when they're joined. And then we use communication. In another book I wrote called the communication movement, we teach leaders and teams how to communicate and magnetically attract people instead of magnetically repel them. So it really is cohesion among the leaders connection among the team and a communication movement to bring people together. So it's it's not the cliches of leadership, like it's time to lead by example. It's time to raise the bar. Well, okay, but how, right, that's what people ask. Well, okay, that sounds great, but how, and that's how we're doing it all over the country right now.
Michael Kithcart:
Yeah, that's fantastic. I also think that people have to get to leaders need to get comfortable with there's not a specific answer. There are things to try, like what you were talking about earlier with the point A to point B, we're not always going to know what point b is. But there has to be a willingness, I would add to that, right? A willingness to experiment to try to keep the communication open, line open, because everybody's going to have to figure out what works for the environment that they're in professionally, personally, you know, socially, community wise too.
Erik Therwanger:
Well, and they also have a team filled with people with a ton of different perceptions on everything these days. So it doesn't matter if it's the vaccine or Mr. Potato Head. People are highly charged about everything these days. And, and so think about this, we're going to bring people back who have PTSD, and also have a very strong opinion about so many things. And we're just going to put them in a room together? What could go wrong? (laughing)
Michael Kithcart:
(laughing) So make sure it's a windowless room too
Erik Therwanger:
That's right. And cameras on, you know, let people know they're being video, but but we're not, we're not thinking about our greatest asset, and the impact this has had on them. And you're absolutely right. The reason that transitions are harder than the obstacle in many cases, there's just more unknowns, we just don't know. So we don't know what it'll be like. And it also depends on what state you live in every state is opening differently. And every business and industry, they're opening differently. So there's not one common way, you know, when you go into the Maine Corps, or there's one haircut. It's simple. It's not like you go to the base barber, and you're like, you know, why don't you just take a little off the sides, or I'm gonna feather it back today. Alright, maybe I just dated myself with the eighties, but, you don't walk into the base barber shop and tell him what you want. He just he knows what you're gonna get. And I'm not saying I have things that regimented. But while in the military, they also tell you what uniform to wear for the day. So they take a lot of the guesswork out of it.
Michael Kithcart:
They take the decision making out right. I mean, isn't that a piece of it? It's so your brain can be freed up to make
Erik Therwanger:
to make better decisions on the bigger topics? Yes. So yes, you're absolutely right. And decisiveness is one of the leadership traits, the Marines, so they want you to be decisive. But they don't want you to be indecisive about what to wear. Like, Gee, I wonder if I should wear camouflage today or camouflage? Okay. Just Yeah, khaki. Yeah. So, you know, that the leaders of today, we all have a clean slate, we're all starting at any a new point in the leadership journey, we're in the transition phase. So if somebody's listening right now, and they said, geez, I, I haven't been the leader, I could have been for my team. That's okay, Today is a new day. And you can go from point A to point B not know where it is, when it is what it is, you can go there with the best attitude, but you can also go there with the intent of of cohesion, the intent of bringing your people together and use every resource at your disposal to do that. And that can be one on ones, you know, virtual or off site. That can be constant personal communication in the workplace, with people just checking it. The big elephant in the room is Hey, Michael, how are you doing today? How is your family? You know, are you doing okay? Is there anything that you need from me? This is the opportunity for every leader to be a leader of people, not employees, but people.
Michael Kithcart:
Right. And they will get indicators if they're not doing it, well, because there will be mass exodus, too. There's also a huge opportunity as leaders to determine like, what is our work environment going to look like post COVID and being proactive in that way? And so I think about the work environments that I've known where it was, there was no flexibility. Right, everybody? No working from home, everybody had to show up. He had to be in your seat by 8am.
Erik Therwanger:
That's right. No. No pajamas to work.
Michael Kithcart:
Yeah, but maybe flexible pants are still going to be okay for a few months. You know? But So, from that leadership, like, how are we going to create the culture post COVID? What's the post- culture; Post-COVID culture, Say that three times? (laughing)
Erik Therwanger:
I know, right? Look at the tongue twister of the decade.
Michael Kithcart:
Yes.
Erik Therwanger:
Okay. So when you're looking at culture, and I have a whole chapter just dedicated to culture, because if culture is important to us, it validates that people are our greatest asset because our culture really isn't about our products and services. It's about our people. It's, it's our environment. Culture is how we feel there. Now, when you look at the military, especially the Marines, you can say, well, they are some regimented people and they are where it matters they are with their systems and their expectations. The Marine Corps motto in Latin is Semper Fidelis, always faithful. But there's a sub motto that Marines have have used, they've altered it because you have to be so flexible in the Marine Corps. Because you never know the variable. So yes, they're regimented about things, but they're also flexible. So it's an interesting dichotomy. So most Marines when they're needed to be flexible, and I don't mean physically flexible, I mean, with your mindset and just adapting, improvising, adapting and overcoming. You'll hear Marines say to each other Semper Gumby, which means always flexible. And in fact, submarines will have, well, if your audience if some are too young, just look up Gumby and pokey. And they'll see the old animated claymation one, but there are Marines that have a toy, Gumby, the toy Gumby at their desk, or in their locker, and it reminds them to always be flexible. So we do need to be flexible. And when we're creating or enhancing culture. Let's just take a look at what makes up our culture. It's our identity. And so maybe we have a mission statement, a vision statement, our core values. At the media company, when I when I ran that as the VP, we didn't have a lot of that stuff. So we had to create it. I always put it out to the team. So the leaders got it started. And we always got input from the team. This is a perfect opportunity to include the team in what this post COVID culture, Oh, I got it.
Michael Kithcart:
Good job.
Erik Therwanger:
The post COVID culture, what is it look like? What does it feel like ask the team, if people are our greatest asset, ask for their input, if they give it to you and you use it, you now have their buy in, I would never leave a culture that I helped create. That's like if you build your own house from by hand, you probably don't want to sell it, you know. So most people leave because they don't have the buy in. This is a great time for leaders to get buy in from everybody. And don't change anything. People hate change. We've had enough change over the last 14 months, don't make a change, only make an enhancement change, nothing enhance everything. And if something can be enhanced, let the team have some input. Let them let them know their insights are valued data is a powerful tool for leaders.
Michael Kithcart:
What about in terms of decision making? Because one of the things that that there's a lot of talk about right now is what are what's our protocol going to be? As we're bringing back the workforce? Do people have to be vaccinated? Don't they? How are you know, are we where the masks going to be? Like all kinds of things right? In the one one of the things that people get frustrated about is indecision, you know, how can leaders take complex topics, and work through them collectively, quickly, so that they can communicate how it's going to be knowing that not everybody's going to be happy about it?
Erik Therwanger:
Here's what I like about this question that you have touched down on, on the depth of leadership, there's communication, there's decisiveness, there's the transfer of authority in an environment that we don't know what it's going to be like, yeah. And so, so those topics are tough when we know everything. Now, when you think about it, the military is going through the exact same thing that the business sector, it's it's unknowns. But what they don't like is decisiveness. What they don't lack is leadership. What they don't lack is authority, or communication. It's built in, it's the way they do things. So right now, if somebody is listening, say, Okay, how do I do all those things? For starters, a lot of the regulations or the, the policies and procedures may be based on state or federal mandates. So that may be removed from us, if they say you have to, you have to have a vaccination? Well, first of all, I think there's going to be, I'm not sure that's going to happen, because there's gonna be a lot of people that are going to fight that or a lot of people that already going to do it, whatever. So some things are going to be federally or state mandated. The ones that aren't, you have to determine the culture that you need to support your team, and your clients or customer and user, and be unwavering on it. If you are in sports. If you're a basketball player, you cannot work remote. It just doesn't make any sense. If you're a first responder, you are not working remote. If you're in the Marine Corps, you can work remote as a recruiter or in some capacity. So right now, we don't have to be as regimented or rule with an iron fist. We can have Semper Gumby, we can always be flexible right now, but you still have to define what is it that our culture needs to be to support our outcome? No, is it if you just try to have a happy culture, you might not make everybody happy. But if your culture is about unifying people, empowering people delivering a powerful message, you have to set you have to set the parameters on what's expected to deliver on that culture. You know, leadership, how you define it, culture, your goals, your vision, these are all intertwined. They can't be So compartmentalize that one doesn't help support the other. So, so a lot of it is, this is a great time for leaders and their teams to review their vision. For 14 months, we haven't known where we're going. Nobody knows where we're gonna end up. So if you have a vision or a vision statement, saying, here's who we're going to become, as a company, start going back to that make sure every goal, every team member, every leader, every policy, every procedure, every step leads toward that vision. And that'll give you greater clarity right now.
Michael Kithcart:
Yeah. Now, now, the the other piece about this is that, you know, we've had the rules around social distancing and staying apart and people are craving connection, craving connection, craving communities, a sense of community. And so what are some of the cures? Like, what is the cure for navigating to the next version, being social?
Erik Therwanger:
You know, I think you've got probably different people with different perceptions in the workplace. And so events have to be set up. Well, what I'm starting to find right now is people are doing hybrid events. Now, if you have an outdoor event, it's really you either show or not, you know, if you have a barbecue going on, it's going to be tough for somebody to remote in, I'll zoom into the barbecue, well, you're not going to get the full experience. I think that you're looking at things like everyday everyday interactions, to training to development sessions, to even just small events that the company has, this is a time when I would encourage events, you know, as the restrictions are starting to drop, we remember when they said it will only be two weeks, three weeks to flatten the curve. That was about 60 weeks ago. And so the impact of us not being able to hit that timeline is pretty significant. This has been a long, drawn out emotional journey. We are social creatures ordered to socially distance. And so I would recommend having smaller events where people feel comfortable, those who want to show up can show up. But have some events like just some fun ones, like some barbecues or a picnic. It doesn't have to be about work. If your greatest asset is about people have an event, it's about the people not about your products, right and just allow them to start gathering, look at how awkward people feel. Getting together with we don't know if we should shake hands, we have to think about this. You have to ask people permission, if you can shake their hand or they want a fist bump or an elbow bump, and we're socially awkward right now. Just go down the aisle at a grocery store, watch when two people are heading in the same direction. You don't even know what to do, like,
Michael Kithcart:
Oh my gosh, how many conversations have we had all about I don't think, what if I don't remember how to act in public? I've lost any-
Erik Therwanger:
Yeah! So so we have to think about that from a leadership perspective, too. If if we're awkward around friends and family, co workers are going to be 10 times more awkward around each other. And and so you know, it's like taking baby steps. Again, we have to take these smaller steps before we try and do this big sprint to the new norm. Otherwise, people are gonna fall down, get hurt and leave your company. So I think you should do it. Here's a great thing. If we were to host an event, what would you like at the event and get the team's input? What would an event? I think too many leaders are trying to shoulder too much that they could give to the team to get their insights. And then based our decisions on that, yeah.
Michael Kithcart:
When you think about the profile of the post COVID leader? What are two or three of the new attributes that are either going to have to be heightened or added in?
Erik Therwanger:
So I think when you look at some of the leadership traits that I would see in that post COVID leader, I think someone who's a skilled communicator, I think we need to use communication to unify people. We also need to have leaders who are very enthusiastic, not fake, but genuinely enthusiastic. Because most people, this has been a very emotional draining experience for them. So we need leaders who are excited to be there sincere and genuine. I feel that the post COVID leader is not going to take things for granted. They are going to be more appreciative. And that's probably one thing that it's caused all of us to be be more appreciative for our friends, our family, our freedom, you know, be appreciative for an event. I'm going to see a movie for the first time this Saturday, I'm a movie guy went to film school. So I was like, you know, it's like cutting an arm off not going to see a movie. I'm going back for the first time but but a bunch of people rented a movie theater, so that's even different, but I'm still excited about it.
Michael Kithcart:
What-
Erik Therwanger:
What's that?
Michael Kithcart:
What movie are you going to go see?
Erik Therwanger:
This isn't going to shock anybody, I'm going to see Mortal Kombat. So, so that's why I'm excited. But, you know, I believe that the appreciative leader will be a very valued leader, and an appreciative leader will be an appreciated leader, if you want to look at it that way. And we just have to share these things, we have to be appreciative that people are coming back to work, we have to be appreciative that people are are feeling part of our culture. You know, we also have to take a look out for our end users, our client or customer guests, and we this is an opportunity to increase their experience. I would say that, if you sum up that question, even though I'm throwing a lot out there, and what we should be the post COVID leader should be a real leader. And that's it. That's during the epidemic. For COVID, we have found out about the epidemic in the lack of leadership, and we've seen it all around the world, a lack of leadership, this is what that person should have done or this. So in the business sector, this is our chance to develop ourselves as leaders to seek out that coaching to become better at the people business. You know, we, we squeaked by for a long time. But until the real chaos hit, we didn't have that motivating factor. I mean, in fact, you know, as you know, when you go into a business, everybody says leadership is important. It's the foundation. Okay, well, when's your next session on leadership development, we don't have anything scheduled. So what I found in the business sector is only about 1% of training time, is dedicated to leadership. And yet leadership is the people business. So this is an opportunity for everyone listening, seek out a leadership coach. So you go Michael, find a leadership program that resonates with your team start to implement leadership, the reason the military hasn't been bugged by COVID is that they have all leaders on board, everybody's developed as a leader, even the newest person, and recruit training, also known as onboarding, developed as a leader, nobody's following that person yet developed as a leader. So this is an opportunity that if people are our greatest asset, to develop every single person to think and act like a leader, I mean, just think about what it would feel like in your company, if everybody showed up thinking and acting like a leader, it would be awesome. So we have to dedicate that time to build us and our people up as leaders.
Michael Kithcart:
Right, exactly. And that's what will move us out of that transition phase.
Erik Therwanger:
That's right, we cannot manage our way through the transition phase, we 100% have to lead our people through it, and try and manage them and they're going right out the door. That revolving door of people leaving your company just gets faster. They they need leaders right now. They don't want to be managed. They want to be left.
Michael Kithcart:
Right, exactly. Okay. So this is a conversation that I know we're going to come back to another another day, Erik, because we've we've just scratched the surface. And so I'm already inviting you back like six months down the road.
Erik Therwanger:
I made the cut?
Michael Kithcart:
Yes, you did. (laughing) First on the podcast where I'm already claiming you're coming back in six months time. And we're going to be talking about what has made the difference who and who is making the cut, and what we need to be doing to as supporters of leaders as coaches too, what we're saying. So in the meantime, how can people follow you and find you?
Erik Therwanger:
Well, for starters, thanks for having me back. I'm already mapping out what we're going to talk about we'll be deep into the transition phase. So this will be awesome. You know, they can find me at our website www.thinkgreat90.com we have a podcast, as you mentioned earlier, The Think Great Experienc is out there so they can hear. They can hear some amazing guests, and hopefully you'll be a guest on our show.
Michael Kithcart:
Would love to.
Erik Therwanger:
And we continue the conversation from your perspective on leadership. And you know, we're on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, they just look up Think Great or Erik Therwanger, and reach out to us happy to answer any questions.
Michael Kithcart:
Okay, that's great. Thank you so much, Erik, for being a guest, and I look forward to continuing the conversation.
Erik Therwanger:
Thank you so much.
Michael Kithcart:
Thank you. And thanks to all of you for listening to the Champions of RISK podcast. How much more could you achieve if you were energized instead of exhausted? Look, I know you're on the brink right now. And I don't want that to happen. I want to pull you back from the ledge of the brink of burnout and get you feeling more energized so that you can have more success in business and in life. And that is why I created a special masterclass for you. It's called How to Move from Exhausted to Energized without Feeling Like a Failure. This masterclass is for leaders just like you who are on the brink of burnout. I want to show you that you can learn a new path, a path where you can have success, time and energy. So join me on this special masterclass, I'm only offering it on Wednesday, May 12, How to Move from Exhausted to Energized. In one hour, you are going to learn how to change your thoughts so that you can feel more energized instead of exhausted. You're going to learn five elements to implement that will give you more energy in your life. And you can implement them starting the very next day. And you'll learn how to move away from burnout and implement energy long term. So again, this is a masterclass on How to Move from Exhausted to Energize without Feeling Like a Failure It's on Wednesday, May 12, at noon, Central Standard Time, one time only, get yourself registered today. And you can do that by clicking on the link.
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