Season 2, Episode 10
Why aren’t women more supportive of other women? For all the women’s organizations, networking groups, and women empowerment programs, so many of us have experienced times when other women didn’t have our back, that we weren’t united or even interested in empowering others. This is a conversation that’s been had by many privately, and we want to change that. On this episode of Champions of RISK, Jodi Duncan and I talk about what’s changed from when we first started our professional careers and the barriers we still witness. Jodi has long championed women in the workplace. She is the President of Flint Communications, a full-service marketing communication agency headquartered in Fargo, ND., and writes about her experiences and observations in her blog series Women in Business.
Hello, I'm Michael Kithcart. I'm a high performance business coach and entrepreneur who helps stressed out leaders and high achievers moved from stuck to unstoppable.
Welcome to the Champions of RISK podcast where we examine the many aspects of risk.
So we can all face uncertainty with more strength and courage together.
So have you ever had this opportunity where like you've known someone in your youth skipped a couple of decades and then reconnected only to discover that while you both kind of took different career paths, you also had some really similar experiences?
Well, I had that fortune with today's guest, and we were high school teammates and neighbors even. And our conversation was we reconnected so quickly got on the subject that I know a lot of, of you out there listening have talked about, and that is the subject of women.
Women's empowerment women are badasses.
And why the hell aren't women supporting each other more. So we are going to have a more public conversation around that, as well as some ways of like, Hey, we can fix this. So I want to introduce you to today's guest, Jodi Duncan.
She is the president of Flint Communications, which is a full service marketing communication agency that's headquartered in Fargo, North Dakota.
They also have offices in Duluth and Minneapolis. She also teaches digital marketing at Concordia College as an adjunct professor, and I can't believe I haven't tapped her for digital expertise yet.
So making a mental note on that one.
Jodi is super passionate about women in leadership and women in the workplace.
She is a widely read blog series called Women In Business. And she was instrumental in bringing Ladyboss Midwest into the Flint Communication Group.
That's a networking group that's committed to finding more ways to empowering and connecting women. So boy, Jodi, we have a ton to talk about.
Thank you so much for being on the podcast.Jodi Duncan:
Thanks for having me.Michael Kithcart:
Always. So Jodi, you've always been in marketing, which is a very interesting industry. For women. I think there's lots of women in it, but not necessarily a ton of women in executive leadership roles, which you are in, yay. So what was it like for you growing up and growing through the ranks in a marketing culture?Jodi Duncan:
Oh, that's such an interesting question that when I think about what I gravitated towards way back in our West Fargo Packer days, I loved writing, and I have an English major, a psychology minor. And I and I just sort of ended up in the communications field. Initially, I wanted to get into journalism and be a journalist and, and my dad was like, You can't make any money doing that. And so I took a different path, and still tried to stay true to the things that I enjoyed the most. But I've, I've really found it interesting over the years, in marketing, how psychology plays such a strong role, the writing aspect of marketing, I think, is just kind of a never ending thing. And when you think about how writing has become, those skills have become a little bit weaker, I think, for people over time from from the days when we were in school, and it was such a big piece of our education and in it, and then I think we kind of got away from that. And it feels like it's swinging back to that. But that's what got me interested in the marketing field. And then, you know, I ended up working. Ironically, I interned at Flint Communications when I was in college. I didn't really love the agency world. So I ended up on the corporate side, and had roles as a marketing coordinator to marketing director when I left the corporate side, I was brand research director at Microsoft Business Solutions. So that was a real narrow focus. I liked the more broad aspect, the agency world turns out so then after 20 years, I made the change back to the agency world. And I tell you what, there's never a dull moment,Michael Kithcart:
I worked with a lot of agencies and my past life in advertising. So I would agree with you that it's very creative. It's very fast paced, action oriented, and can be all this use. Even the advertising, marketing and communications world can be very cutthroat and very, very competitive. So how does a woman survive and thrive in that type of environment?Jodi Duncan:
Yeah, well, some days I think it's easier than others, I would say. Now, where I'm at with my career, my ability to do well. has everything to do with the team around me. And we've built a team that I used to say this a lot. Like, I feel like all they did was try to make me look good. So that pushed me forward. And having that support. And that network of people that really support you, what I think is really, really hard for everybody in the agency business is, you often get a lot of criticism and challenges on the client side, and then you get that same thing back in the on the agency side. So you start to get a double whammy. And I think that makes it really hard to navigate and to keep your positivity up and you know, feel good about what you're doing. So there's lots and lots of challenges, I think, but having that good supportive team and network, I think are crucial to moving forward.Michael Kithcart:
Why has it been so important for you to really like, elevate the voices of women to put a spotlight on women in business through your blog series? And I would say just even who you are as leader,Jodi Duncan:
One of the things that became really apparent to me, so I have two daughters that are in their 20s. And as I saw them move through their college years, and then into their work lives, it was really apparent that they were going through a lot of the same things we went through. And so then all of a sudden, I was like, nothing has changed. So I had been in the workforce for 20 plus years, and it's filled with a lot of the same struggles. And even today, you know, they call me all the time when they have different work issues. And it's kind of appalling how little we've evolved through time. And I think you'd probably say this was a similar experience for you, Michael. But when I first got into the workforce, part of my success was because I acted more like a guy than a than a woman. And I had really modeled after, you know, I have four brothers kind of modeled my behavior after how I saw them and my dad work in the business environment. And that served me really, really well. But now as I reflect back, you know, there's a lot of things that women bring to the table that I think maybe we're considered too soft or too sensitive, those are things we need to figure out how to leverage rather than how to behave more in a more masculine fashion. So those are some of the things that got me really interested in it. And then I saw, in my own work life, I saw a lot of patterns with women, that were just consistent challenges no matter what. So whether it was working with a client on the manufacturing side, someone in the tech industry, someone in the agency world, there were so many common challenges, that it's crazy. Sometimes I feel like when we have these kinds of conversations, all those nuggets of similarity that you may be thought, Oh, that's just me being overly sensitive, or that's only happened to me, and then all sudden you start having these dialogues, and you're like, Wow, that's a very common issue.Michael Kithcart:
Yeah, it reminds me of when I was thinking back to my early career, I gave, and do still give a lot of credit to a manager that I had early in my sales career who was a man, and he still is, and and, and I learned a lot from him, like it completely changed, you know, my trajectory in in sales. And I'm curious about this, because I'm, like, I want to win. Right, you know, and women, there's a lot you want to win, Jodi, I think you are an incredibly competitive person and self described, right? Like, I'm not revealing any secrets here. And the, the women that we have around us in our circles are high achieving, performing, you know, top of the line, women. So where's that like balance? Because some of that is us. Some of it we modeled because the only other thing that we saw were other like male leaders, right? And we thought, oh, maybe that's the way that we need to do it. And so where where's that, like, I don't want to say balance, but maybe adjustment that that allows us to be maybe some of those other parts of us that we didn't reveal the first 20 some years in our careers.Jodi Duncan:
Yeah, I the the competitive thing is interesting. And I have when I do personality tests that always comes up as a high result for me like my boss here when it was maybe 15 years ago, shortly after I came back to Flint. He had us all do personality tests and he said that I had sold The highest competitive personality trait than anybody that the guy had ever the facilitator of this had ever seen. And of course, I was taken aback by that, right? Like, oh, what's wrong with me kind of thing, like, your initial reaction is always like, what's wrong with me, but, but, um, I think what's changed for me over time is, and we grew up, we grew up, always everything was about winning, right. So whether it was sports, or everything was so competitive, or how you were doing in school, or where you ranked in the class, and all those kinds of things, I feel like that sort of gets ingrained in you, or at least it did when we were growing up. But I think what's changed for me is, I used to feel more like you got to win at all costs. And and now I think I have a broader view of the world, but I don't in the business world, you have to have a little bit of that competitive drive.Michael Kithcart:
And where I think that the opportunity is, is where we put that competition, because we both also experienced and a lot of other women too, because we've had these conversations, is the competition becomes less about the external and more about between the females. So why, why are we not better at supporting one another?Jodi Duncan:
That question drives me crazy. Like I think about that a lot. And we have a at Flint Group, my leadership team is all women. And we've spent a lot of time probably over the last three years talking very openly about that, and being much more direct with each other on those kinds of things, and having those conversations, which has been really helpful, but I don't where it comes from, I don't know. And I and I think back to even when we were in junior high and high school, you know, like, it's almost like you just start out that way, right? It's like, nobody really taught you that. But somehow we all ended up there.Michael Kithcart:
I think it has something to do with scarcity. And I'm curious, because as we go through different generations, now, you maybe you see it with your daughter, maybe you see it with some of the younger people that are you know, on your team, scarcity is a piece of it, it used to be in sadly, still far too often that there's only one woman, maybe one woman at, you know, on the executive team or one woman in a VP role. And that it didn't appear like there was room for more, or that if this didn't work, the one person that was there maybe was carrying the weight of so many others on their shoulders, rightly or wrongly, right, you know, like, I'm saying all this with no judgment. And just I'm trying to have curiosity about it, because I judge plenty of other things. So I'm just curious about like your take on that, you know, where, where does scarcity play a role in how we either lift each other up or try to keep other people down or just say mean shit about each otherJodi Duncan:
Part of it, I think, is, there's something about being the only woman at the table. So if you're aggressive enough, and you get your place at the table, and I think this has changed, I feel like there's a really pointed approach. And I think women are trying to bring other women along in a way that they didn't, always in the past. But when I think back to the companies that I worked for, and a lot of them were male dominated companies. And when you were the one woman that was part of the conversation, or you were included in the decision making, there was something about that, that felt special. So you know, I think that could be part of it is that until we started bringing these kinds of things forward. And you know, until people like you started having more ways for this to be talked about. And to get it more public understanding. I think that scarcity was part of the appeal to different women. And now, our generation of women, I think, is trying to make those things more available to the generation behind us. And I think that especially with with my girls is that is I want them to have open doors that that we didn't have or that we had to kind of break down. But even having a female Vice President, you know, never in a million years that I think in my lifetime, I'd see that. It's remarkable some of the things that have happened. I think we as women have always supported and encouraged thatMichael Kithcart:
There are plenty of women networking groups out there, right, and we've been a part of them. And there's always some type of premise around the empowering women bringing women together. So often I'll just say I'm like myself, like I go, and then I actually feel like I'm not welcome there. And it's like, like, right. And it's just like, how can you say that on one side? I'm not perfect. I've certainly done things. But it's just like, it seems so consistent. There's a pattern? And I don't know, like, do you have a good experience? Or maybe like, what's trying what what's Ladyboss Midwest doing that's, that's different that shifting that so that, that people actually can be part of a network and actually feel like this is my place, these are my people?Jodi Duncan:
Yeah, part of the Ladyboss Midwest concept is to have something that's a little more hard hitting. I think a lot of the women network groups, not all of them, certainly, but that they don't necessarily go after the hard discussions and or want to have that more open exchange. And so I think that's part of it. But it surprised us how many women wanted to be a part of it, and then we've started to expand it. So it started out as a Fargo Morehead thing, and then quite quickly, we were kept for different communities that wanted to have their own Ladyboss so that there's a desire, I think, to have a community that's somewhat in the same proximity, but where you can have these open exchanges and conversations that don't feel off limits? I think that's part of it. And then I don't know there's something about groups that men aren't dominating those conversations, or they're not the ones answering the question. So what's interesting with the Ladyboss Midwest group is it's all women, right? So the exchanges are all women, the speakers are all women, from all kinds of different walks in life and different perspectives. But it's really trying to open the door for those kinds of conversations that maybe aren't in some of the other groups as as open. I don't know if that answered your question.Michael Kithcart:
Well, I think it's just a I think we're posing questions to right, you know, and certainly, if anybody's listening out there, you have the answer, feel free to, you know, to put it in the comment box, because this is an ongoing conversation. But I think there's an element of some, on some level, sometimes people just don't know how to have the conversation. And I'm curious to go back to something that you said earlier about how your whole executive team at Flint Communications, is women and that you are actually are holding space to have conversations? And so could you even share with us, either some of the topics that you're covering? And just, or how did you build the trust, so that there could be honest dialogue in that environment,Jodi Duncan:
It has not been easy. So for me, when I first started with Flynn, I came from, you know, the business community and, and the Microsoft world and, and had a, maybe a less sensitive approach to having conversations about work or something maybe that didn't go right. And when I first came to Flint, one of the things that was really hard for me, his people didn't understand that direct conversation approach. And, and, and took it as like a mean, you know, mean thingMichael Kithcart:
You can say, mean girl.Jodi Duncan:
Kind of, but it was more about the confrontation and was more about the directness and, and then over the years, I and I used to talk about this all the time. So eventually what happened is, when I was speaking to the group, I would talk about these things pretty openly. And I think that that helped shape the direction that we were going. But it also helped me understand to where I was maybe too harsh, or was hurting people's feelings. But what was so surprising to me here is, if there was, if you had a problem with someone, they would literally talk to every person in the company before they talked to the person that they were having the problem with. And most of the time, the person that they were having a problem with had no idea that there was an issue. So over the years, as I understood them more and talked more openly about it, we really made an effort to have those direct conversations. And let me tell you, there were many, many times that people's feelings were hurt, or they got mad at each other and wouldn't speak for long periods of time. But that was probably the best thing that could happen is that you actually have those crucial conversations openly and they're hard. They're hard and it's hard to hear that stuff too. You know, when you're on the on the receiving end of someone's disappointment, but man, that's how we grow. That's how we learn and we grow. But my leadership team wasn't always very open that way. And what's been good is Everybody has spent a lot of time self reflecting and trying to learn where their weaknesses are, where their sensitivities are, how to better communicate with each other. And you know, we we constantly have to continue to work on that it's not something like, okay, it's all good and perfect. Now it's it's a continuous spectrum of work that we have to do on on those things.Michael Kithcart:
Yes. And I think that's actually really healthy to to communicate, and for everybody to hear is that this is it's an ongoing thing. It's not a one and done. It's all I did this, that you know, this one thing, it's really like, who do we want to be as people? And how do we want to be showing up for each other? So as you've taken this on, and you're the leader of the organization, so it shifting culture, like that comes from the top? So I applaud you for doing that. How would you say that it's changed or shifted your leadership style over the years?Jodi Duncan:
That criticism I took from being direct, it took a long time for me to understand. Because I just would have told you that that's the that's how you do it, right? You just got to be direct and have to have those hard conversations. And but now, I've tried really hard to think about other people's personalities, and what works with certain people and what doesn't work with certain people. And that that's probably how it's changed me the most is, oddly enough, it's probably made me more sensitive and a little, and to try to be making sure that we're giving positive reinforcement to people or that people know, the things that they did well, and there's certain people that you just can't really be completely direct with, and you have to have a softer approach. So I think that's a was a big learning for me is just because I understand things a certain way, that doesn't mean that everybody understands things that way. So with that direct approach, it's a tricky tightrope to walk, because you don't want to be off putting when you're just trying to be honest and have honest conversation. And so you have to really figure out who you're talking to, but you brought up trust. I mean, that is that that's the cornerstone, right? is that if you trust someone to have a conversation, a difficult conversation, I think everybody understands that you're having that conversation, because you want things to be better. And they know that you're coming at it for the right reasons, and, and really approaching it at how can we elevate ourselves? How can we be better? How can we work better together, whatever the the core of that issue is, and that's a that's a big one is is building on that trust? Hmm. People don't do that very often. And I think I think that's worse for women. You know, it's easier to have a direct conversation with men, because they don't think about it as much. But But I think about when I've maybe had a hard conversation, or maybe maybe a woman has said, you know, some offhanded comment, you obsess on it, you know, or if you get a negative review, or whatever it is, and and I think women have a tendency to obsess on it in a way that men don't. They're like, Yeah, whatever.Michael Kithcart:
Yeah, it's kind of cut and dry. We're talking, I'll just like do this little abstract, right, because we're kind of we're also talking in some generalizations, because I think we can also think of examples of people that we've had on our teams, where I've had to be more sensitive to some of the men than the women just and then that's just a personality thing. That's yeah, on that, but what do you think we have all been in situations where we could maybe be better do better do right by other women? And so what do you think is so risky? What gets in our way, sometimes of not making a stand? Or not, maybe not even tolerating certain things?Jodi Duncan:
Yeah. I don't know why it's this way. But and I think that this is ingrained in us when we're quite young. If you do well, then that means I'm not doing well. So if you're successful, that somehow I think women, and it seems like it's sort of an internal thing that you have this weird thing in your mind that says, Well, if she's doing well, I can't I can't be doing as well or is that it probably speaks a little bit to the competitive aspect of who we are. And I think like we grow up, competing against each other in a way that doesn't feel like you can both have this have success, success. And so there's always a little jealousy factor I think maybe? I feel like it was more prevalent when I was younger now ever since we turned 50 Like, because that's all going on right like that. So that, for me felt very different I, when I turned 50, I just felt different about all those things. And, and maybe through the years, I was always working towards that to get to that. But I don't know, I don't know if it's a jealousy thing, or if it's something that we just grow up kind of if women are just designed to have, you know, that competitive against each other thing, I don't know.Michael Kithcart:
That there are some primal pieces around that. And yet, I don't want to use that as a, you know, a permission or an excuse or anything like that, because we still have to figure out how to come along together, we still are in a state of gray, there are too few women in leadership roles. There are too few women owning multimillion dollar businesses, there are too few women in Washington, you know, like the list is still there. And so to your earlier comment about some things with your daughters, right, like some things haven't changed that much.Jodi Duncan:
No, and in some ways they've gone backwards. Women are often apologetic for their success, don't really feel comfortable in those roles or taking on those roles. There's that statistic I write about this a lot. But that statistic that a man will apply for a job that he feels he's 60% qualified for, but a woman won't unless she is 100%, and checks all the boxes. And I see that all the time, all the time, even on on boards, which when you look at the stats of how many women are on boards, especially business boards, women, you are very more you're much more likely to see women on charity or pro bono or nonprofits than you are on business boards. But I think that plays a lot into that is Oh, I don't know everything about the chamber. I don't know everything about this hospital or, or I don't know everything about how these financials work. And so women will shy away from participating in those things where you don't see that with men as as often.Michael Kithcart:
Yes, yeah, there are some communication points. I think that just we overall as women can, can improve upon. Self promotion is another one where there's lots of statistics around it right that women are less likely to, to actually really owning what your story is how you help people putting in putting it out there and telling people how you can help them. And so, you know, you're in the communication business. This I mean, I'm just thinking of a new revenue line for Flint Communications. Jodi,Jodi Duncan:
(laughter) Thank you.Michael Kithcart:
(laughter) You can you can start with that. But you also write a lot about confidence. Mm hmm. And, you know, I'm curious, what does confidence mean to you? What does it look like?Jodi Duncan:
I think it's being comfortable with who you are, and bringing your voice forward. And, you know, again, growing up, I had very low confidence and and I don't think that people that were around me would necessarily think that, you know, I think back to when we were in high school and one of the gals that we went to high school with she said to me, this was probably five years ago, but she said I was so I was so impressed with you always had such such great confidence in high school. And I mean, I bust out laughing I was like, Are you kidding me? I had zero confidence on a scale of one to 10 it was probably negative. But I think as I've gotten older, I'm more and more comfortable with who I am. I'm I'm less and less concerned about who likes me. You know, that's a big thing is and I see this in leadership all the time. Women worry a lot about if people like them, or if someone has said something that is more critical, you know, it turns somehow turns into they don't like me. And and I think that's part of it is just you know, as you get maybe a little more seasoned and I mean, I have super thick skin. I think it takes a lot for someone to hurt my feelings these days. But that wasn't always true. So confidence is really being comfortable with whether people like you or not right and being okay, if they don't like you. I think that's a big part of it.Michael Kithcart:
Yes, yes. I'll add to that too on the the confidence piece and things that I work with clients on is that big shift comes from realizing like you don't need to know everything. So I think about us in a hurry. earlier stages in our careers, right, like the first time we were leading people and like thinking like, Oh, God, I need to know what's I need to know the answers and stuff? And how freeing it is to? Like, I don't know, but let's go find out. Right. You know. And so confidence in that regard is, is less about, it's not about knowing at all, but it's just in the belief that you can figure it out.Jodi Duncan:
And that, I think, is, is so freeing, too. And I think we have room to also add that that belief that we can all figure it out, you know, either together, or that there, we can figure it out. And there's room for more, is a good place for us to start.Jodi Duncan:
Yeah, I agree. But that's one of the things, the confidence thing is one of the things that really holds women back. And I think, when we're talking about the boards a minute ago, that's one of the obstacles I think one of the hurdles is, is feeling uncomfortable sitting on that board or participating in that discussion, because you don't know all the answers, like you said, so. Some of it's just getting used to it, and then being being okay with not knowing.Michael Kithcart:
Yeah, and, and all of this and everything that we're talking about. It's it's about practice, right? Again, I come back to that, because it's not a one solution. It's like, it's, it's, it's an evolution. Absolutely. And it's a commitment, it's a commitment to do better, like as we learn about it, just like what you learned about from your team, and we make adjustments and we get better. And so when we think about, like, how we can even start doing some of those things, I was just kind of thinking off the cuff of doing a back and forth like, so what are some of the ways that you, you promote women just, in general?Jodi Duncan:
I try really hard to play a mentor role with women that have worked here, some have left here, some are still here, I feel it's really funny, when you get to the stage where you're like, most of the people in this company are younger than my kids, right. So you're, you feel like you have kind of a different, a different role. But I think one of the things that and part of it is because of my role and the visibility of my role. So it's, it's easier for me to reach out to different women to, you know, maybe congratulate them on something that they've done, or something that I've seen publicly or if someone new comes into the community or gets promoted, I try to connect with them and, and help where I can provide insight and guidance where I can. And it's amazing how many women appreciate that are women that you think like, oh, gosh, she's really coming into this high level position. And she's, you know, out of my league, or whatever the the thinking might be, at the end of the day, we all kind of need the same thing. And we need that supportive person that you can bounce things off of, and, and I've learned so much from other women, you know, having those kinds of conversations. So even when you and I've gotten together a couple times we have for lunch, it's been so great to just have that dialogue and understanding of the different journeys that we've had. And you can learn so much from having those kinds of conversations. So I try really hard to be open. If someone wants support or or advice and a lot of times it's just listening. You know, a lot of times people just want someone to listen as they think things through.Michael Kithcart:
Yes, yeah. Being a sounding board. Yes, I think there's also deliberate ways that we can support women, shopping at women owned businesses, using any platforms that we have access to and showcasing other women who are doing really cool things. It's one of the things that I love to do with the podcast is like, I get to have people like you Jodi, on this. So and I love what you're doing with Ladyboss Midwest and I know that continues to evolve. How can people find you and how can they be following your Women In Business blog?Jodi Duncan:
So Women In Business blog is posted on www.flint-group.com, and we proactively post it Facebook and LinkedIn, Twitter, I'm super inactive. But I do have an account. So it's Jodi L. Duncan. Jodi with an I. Instagram, which I'm also not very active on is @Duncan4495. But I'm more of a voyeur than I am a participant, but the Women in Business blog, I think the very first time I wrote that I was really surprised at the reaction. And that's one of the times where I was like, there's there's some issues here that need to be addressed. And I think people appreciate being able to have those conversations and and understand that we all kind of have that, you know, because I think I think that's a big thing, too, is that you think it's just you that has these insecurities or these different challenges. So it's always nice to know that there's others that are going through the same thing.Michael Kithcart:
Yes, that is so true, every single blog of yours that I've read, and I think I've read almost every one of them. Yes, they're really, really good. And I'll be sure to put a link in the show notes so that people can see. And if they start reading one, then they can start finding the thread, every single one. I have said yes. Like I understood exactly what you were talking about. Yes, I've had that experience. And there is comfort in knowing that because we keep so much of that to ourselves. So definitely encourage people toJodi Duncan:
Yeah, we have a lot of there's a lot of similarities with women.Michael Kithcart:
Yes, more than than we know. So I want to keep this conversation going, you know, at another time, you know, we'll pick different topics, but still within the the women framework, because we've just scratched the surface today.Jodi Duncan:
I know.Michael Kithcart:
But I appreciate you being on the Champions of RISK podcast. Thank you.Jodi Duncan:
I appreciate you having me. It's always so fun to connect with you.Michael Kithcart:
Yes, I feel the same way. It's like, where did those 30 years ago?Jodi Duncan:
It was just yesterday we were in Brick Tree Park.Michael Kithcart:
Yes! And neither of us has changed a bit.Jodi Duncan:
More hair and more wrinkles, right. I ever thought we'd be our mom's age.Michael Kithcart:
Oh my god. Yes. I never even thought of that. So thanks for that.Jodi Duncan:
(laughing) You're welcome.Michael Kithcart:
Okay, thanks, Jodi.Jodi Duncan:
Yep, you bet.Michael Kithcart:
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